Danger, Danger Will robinson

Or to put it another way, when it's good it's very good but when it's bad it's very very bad.

Okay I'm sure one or two of you by this point might be worrying that I am loosing what shreds remain of my sanity as I am making even less sense then usual. Well let me explain.

After absent of several days I decided to visit my 'favourite website' of the moment to see exactly what they are talking about. Well what I found demonstrates one of the greatest strengths and weaknesses of the internet. That of the facelessness/anomity. Basically it allows some people who might not have the courage/self confidence to get involved in conversations to put their views across on message boards or blogs (:-) because their not having to face people direct. Myself a case in point. I do find it very hard to talk about stuff sometimes especally in Church classes as I do feel stupid compared with some peoples knowledge levels and I worry I'm making no sense. This is part is one of the reasons I started this thing and kept it going even though the number of people who leave comments is very llooowwwwwww..

Well the flip side to this anomity is that is can allow people to talk about all sorts of subjects they probably wouldn't do in the actual physical present of other people or church members because they are subjects that are best left alone.

Okay hopefully that will give you all some idea of where it is I'm coming from before I start disecting this thread. The name of the thread? Virtual Modesty. As always any comments on quotes in bold. Over to the starter of the thread. Girl from utah;
"With computers and the internet there are a lot of people who are participating in "virtual" reality "worlds" and role playing games.
I'm resisting the pull of trying anything like this. Facebook sucks enough time away already"
Things such as Second Life where in a 3D world people have a 3d character and chat and socialize, buy houses and clothing, and more.A Mormon recently told me that modest clothing is not important in such things like that because it's not real and that these virtual "characters" are more like Barbie's.
what kind of games did this member get up to with their barbies?
So, although the idea of things like Second Life may seem kind of odd to some,
or geek mecha to others
I was wondering what others thought. Do you think if you have an online character such as that that your Mormon standards should apply there as well or not? Or because it's not "real" that it does not matter?"

Okay well I think we can all agree based on this opening statement, this thread can not and will not end well.

First response
" believe that modesty is still important even in the virtual world.
Hear, hear.
I have neve been on Second Life, but from my understanding you getto choose how your avatar looks like. You must be as careful of what you choose online as you do in the real world.The big draw to the internet is the anonymous nature of it. On the internet you can be anyone you want to be.
Yes I am in fact my evil twin brother when online. Lets just keep that between me you and the internet ;-)
The question should be...who are you choosing to be?
Wow this is a all together more in depth philosopical question then I've come to expect from this site. "

Theres then a couple of good quotes that modesty is still important and some discussions on how your character still represents you as a person. Good valid points.

Then our old friend from Utah Clever Clogs appear.

"Modesty shouldn't matter online.
I don't like where this is going.
People play SecondLife or other avatar based games to espcape the REAL world and go into a video game to be something else.
But if your happy playing a character which doesn't share your values, what does that say about your values to begin with.
People need an escape valve...and people shouldn't be so hung up on themselves in a place that was designed to give you freedom to do things you normally get to do in real life.
yes but if your 'character' is normally doing things that are againist church teachings what does that say about you?
"
So then someone who could probably give Yoda a run for his money appears
"but what is real life? does it not exist in our minds and on our computer screens? if it exists, its real. if its real, its part of real life.no? :)"

I think what this guy is trying to say is that your character is doing things you are choosing for it to do. It doesn't matter if it is virtual, your still choosing to do it. When does the line between virtual/ reality end etc.

The first responder then reappears
"In D&C when talking about the Law of Chastity it clearly states that you should even avoid thinking about unchastness.
that's right.
To say things like it's okay to do it online because it isn't real where do you draw the line?
I'm sure you can have a deeply philsopical discussion on this.
Is it okay to have virtual sex with someone online when you are married? After all it isn't real. Is it okay to have virtual sex with a virtual character.........
He does go on and mentions doing very bad things virtually but I'm sure you get the idea, I don't have to spell it out"

So this does raise some interesting thoughts for discussion. If a person is using a character online, as it's virtual and via proxy I guess is the best word for it, is it okay to do stuff you wouldn't do as a church member in real life?

Of course clever clogs isn't going to let first responder get away with those comments with out getting his say in again
"I find it creepy that people want to blur the lines between virtual reality/computer games and the behavior we do in REAL life.
I think he's missing the point here. Online it's not what your actions it's more about your thoughts.
If we're so concerned about people's "online" lives...why don't we start sending out "online missionaries" in pairs and tell them to repent, get baptized and head to their nearest SecondLife LDS Chapel (or LDSLinkup) ward!?
Again, I think he's missing the point. There are no deeds without thoughts.
Give me a break. "

Okay so there seems to be two schools of thought developing in this arguement. The first is that as it's virtual and your aware it's virtual it doesn't matter what your character does, it's not real. The second seems to be that it doesn't matter if the actions are real it's still leading your thoughts down paths they shouldn't stray. Clever clogs continues in response to first responders comments about having your character do very bad things

" That's at one extreme end of the spectrum. However, the other extreme end of the spectrum is just as crazy where we now have people worried about our online behaviors in a fictional, computer generated world!!!

Great...nazi mormons are now concerned about our spiritual well being online. I guess we have to start being worried of our "digital sins" and repent for them.
wow could he be anymore touchy?

Are we gonna start confessing that we experimented with a little online coffee? Had a sip of online vodka? Shagged in the back of online car!?If so, I have a multitude of "digital sins" that I must repent for. Oh grow up

I am a big "Grand Theft Auto" fan. Should I confess to my bishop that I steal cars, beat up hookers, kill drug lords and make drug runs on Grand Theft Auto?
No but you might want to reconsider your choice in video games.
Will I lose my temple recommend...all based on my shenanigans I've committed on... a video game!?

I find it extremely bizarre that people take video games and online virtual reality worlds so seriously to the point that they worry about the law of chastity (or any other law/commandment)...online.
They mean in the sense of thoughts not deeds.
The irony is that if we're soo worried about keeping the commandments online...I could easily create a world where no body would break the commandments and thus I would live a 100% "sin free" online life...(doesn't that plan sound familiar to a REAL plan proposed in Heaven!?)
Are you really trying to justify yourself in the way I think you are?
"
At this point the girl who started the thread reappears.
"We are told by church leaders to not to watch movies that are questionable...but it's okay to play online in ways that are questionable?
I think this is he crux of the arguement and will keep this thread running on and on.
If church leaders tell us not to watch a rated R movie...then yes I'm pretty sure they'd warn against playing Grand Theft auto. And in fact they have spoken about video games.Perhaps it is something that should be pondered and pray about personally. Although I still would be curious to know what our bishop would say about it too.
I would also be fascinated to get Bro H's and Photoshops take on this as well"

So the argument now seems to be at the point between the difference between reality and Virtualality. Can a avatar or character of yours do stuff online that you wouldn't do in real life and it be okay because it's just virtual?

Then we have a good sensible answer from a girl from the UK ( we do have a lot of clever girls here don't we?
"We are accountable for every single thing we do, whether online or offline, virtual or otherwise. By masquerading as an immodest or immoral person in a 'virtual' life, we are advocating that lifestyle- and thus .furthering Satan's agenda. Not that I expect you to agree with it, but it is ridiculous to imply you I think she's talking to clever clogs here
are in some way not responsible for your actions because it's online and somehow, therefore,doesn't count."

Then theres another post, from another girl
"The Only real issue that I see the church or members could have with on-line gaming and such is how ADDICTIVE it can be....who cares what your characters do on-line or in games....Just because I have a Gay Sim, or one that cheats on its spouse in the game doesnt mean that It affects me, or is something that I would personally do. However....people do get SO into their stupid games that it affects their lives, Marriages and other relationships; But as long as you still keep in touch w/ reality and aren't hurting anyone WHO CARES? "

"I'm not hurting anyone." does this excuse ever work. Now again we're back to the whole virtual/real life debate. Hoever he mentions Sims which is very different to things like second life in how your character works.

Clever clogs returns
"I'm getting off track here. But most adults...are smart enough to distinguish the real world and their online world and it really doesn't affect what you're doing.
this is interesting, no one said it would affect your actions.
For example, I like to play Sim City. If the internet really affected me, I'd have a (delusional) belief that I am the Mayor of San Diego and that I can zone and rezone any part of the city with a click of a mouse.
Hmm again interesting, their moving away from second life and using other computer games. "

Well the said thread is ongoing but I'm going to leave it there. It was very interesting how it polarised opinion between church members. Is having a controlling a character who commits immodist acts in a virtual world okay but it's just virtual and it 'won't affect your real life', or that it leads you down a slippery slope.

My own view seems to be coming down on the side of it doesn't matter if it virtual or not, if you create a character that is in effext 'representing you' and you are controlling it and make it go round commiting immodist acts, it doesn't matter how much of a 'game' it is, it's going to affect you and you will be thinking thoughts you shouldn't be.

what do other people think? Lets get some thought guys.